Aug 15
How Much Is Too Much?
trackbackHaven’t you heard it? If you’ve ever visited an atheist or skeptic forum, it’s quite likely that you have. It’s the “why won’t you leave us alone?” retort from believers. “Why do you hate us?” “Why do you hate God?” The more profound and underlying question we’ve been asked, and the question we should be asking ourselves, is, “How far should my activism reach, and why?”
You can scale the relative level of activism in most atheists similarly. Starting off as a believer, or at least a follower, we are quite often sure of ourselves. Perhaps we haven’t encountered any opposing points of view. Perhaps we’re stubborn. Perhaps we’re overwhelmed by the religious beliefs and practices of our families. Whatever the case, many of us start off on the theist end of the spectrum, and are quite often advocates of that way of life and belief.
Then we’re hit with some sort of doubt. Bart Erhman, for instance, was awstruck by the fact that the icon of his belief system, the Holy Bible, was severely flawed with contradictions, rewrites, and surreptitiously inserted new passages. How could the bible be inerrant, how could a real god endorse such a mishmash of not only contradictory but also violent and cruel edicts? Doubting is the catalyst that causes us to self-reflect, and to analyze all that we know about what we’ve been told. It’s required for the next stage of development - agnosticism.
Perhaps I’ve intentionally skipped a few minor middle steps, but the phase between doubt and disbelief encompasses a variety of positions, depending on the individual, from confusion to agnosticism to denial to relapse. I like to call this phase the “I don’t know” phase, which is why I associate it with agnosticism.
Eventually, hopefully, we reach a point at which we question why we’re even bothering with the question of “is there a god?” We realize that, since there’s no empirical evidence of the existence of, at minimum, the divine beings alluded to in every god myth, we narrow our scope of world view to two main areas:
First, the area of spirituality. This isn’t to say that spirituality exists or it doesn’t. It’s a concept, and there comes a time where most of us in some way address whether it has meaning to us. When a loved one dies, do you think he or she “goes to a better place?” How do you fit that into your world view? Do you think there is something invisible that is greater than you? Do you think there is destiny, fate, karma? These are things that even agnostics question, even after having rejected their former god of choice, and it’s something that, until all our questions are satisfactorily answered by science, we will be inclined to address.
What matters about that area of interest is that it may help determine your level of acceptance of certain types of activism, because even without a god or doctrine to guide you morally, you may reach for a more metaphysical state of moral choice based on your concepts of spirituality. Hardline skeptics and atheists tend to eschew this point of view, but they cannot deny that people are habitually, if not naturally, sentimental toward the supernatural and spiritual potential in the world.
Second, the area of society. This is not what you think, but how you deal with what others think, and how they deal with what you think, and the acts based upon such thought. This is your relationship with, essentially, the rest of the world. More specifically, it’s what’s mutually tangible. What kinds of laws, regulations, taboos, etc., affect you, and what kind of effect you can have. On our scale of development, this is often a stopping point (or sometimes a starting point for those who were never theists to begin with). It’s a plateau representing a static world view, with no inclination to have that world view affect society.
Beyond that plateau, there is a minority of skeptics, rationals, atheists who attempt to influence society in a variety of ways. The extent to which one is active is often based on the extent to which one has rejected religion. So, there are varying degrees of activism (degrees of intensity) and varying methods of activism. And there’s at least one person or group of people out there in the world opposed to every single type. Surprisingly, many are from the set of non-believers.
The degrees of intensity can be described in another abridged scale: start with the “closet” atheists, who, although in their own minds are atheists, either deny that fact to others, or try to hide it, lest they be reprimanded, punished, or shunned by family, work, friends, or others. Sometimes these closet atheists end up creating alternate identities for use on the Internet, a place in which they can freely express opinions without coming under personal attack. The next level is the avowed atheist — someone who isn’t afraid to tell others, but who doesn’t necessarily seek out others in order to tell them. Next is the conversational atheist — someone who actively tells others, perhaps seeking them out, in order to tell them about non-belief. That category can be split between those who seek just to converse and share ideas, and those who are on the fringes of being active deconverters.
Proactive deconversion is the next level, and it shares its spot with proactive lobbying — efforts either to convert believers into non-believers, or efforts to create a society where law, the government, and public places are secular. My opinion is that this is where most non-believers choose to draw the line. Beyond that line lies anti-religious activism. This is an activist state that actively attempts to purge society of all (or most) things religious. This category can be split between targeting only religious activities that cause specific harm, and targeting all religious activities, regardless of perceived harm (with the idea that all aspects of religion are harmful, because they’re religious).
An example of the latter point of view is where, recently, the Swedish government is making it illegal for any school, public or private, to teach religion as if it were true.1
There are two more primary levels of activism. Next is targeting everyone, treating religion as a disease, in a sense, and trying to disinfect everyone, even parents who want to teach their children about religion. In 2001, Richard Dawkins wrote a letter to the British secretary of state, asking that the faith status of existing schools be removed, allowing children to choose for themselves what to believe, in a non-religious school environment.2 Essentially, wipe away religious schooling institutions, and eliminate faith-based labeling for children, despite parental wishes. This is a step further in the direction of activism because, unlike Sweden’s attempt to eliminate teaching of religion “as if it were true,” Dawkins (at least then) advocates eliminating religion as a label of any sort — no religious institutions at all, no parental force-feeding of religion, and especially no state-based advocacy of religious belief.
Christopher Hitchens is even a more ardent supporter of this “no religion” point of view. Even from the title of his best selling book “God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything,” one can infer that Hitchens decries all things religious, and would probably, if in a position to do so, wipe the world clean of religious practice (but for the sake of scholarship, not religious history, I’m sure). Some would call this “militant atheism.” My view is that that term is misused, and should apply only to the final niche in the spectrum of activism.
Real militant atheism is literally taking up a weapon and fighting those who support religion, and in some cases those who merely don’t support real militant atheism. Consider the Crusades. Real militant atheism is similar. It’s a purge of religion, similar to what Hitchens seems to desire, but instead of doing so through legal means, it’s doing so with violence. Have we seen much of this? Hardly. Perhaps none at all, at least in what’s commonly displayed on the news. There are countries, though, that will torture and kill some believers.3 There are also, assuredly, individuals and factions worldwide who, like their religious counterparts, would take up arms in order to fight for what they consider to be freedom from religion (especially if they think that a purported secular government has overly mingled its affairs with religion, effectively creating a theocracy).
Inevitably, those who fall somewhere on the active side of the scale will be directly or indirectly criticized for such activism by those who believe they are the targets. Here’s a fine, succinct, example of what I mean, thanks to Atheist Eve:

To be an activist at any level, one must expect some criticism. My analysis here isn’t about criticism, however, it’s more about ethics. Obviously, the more advanced on the activism scale, the more criticism, but is there a point on the scale that clearly goes too far?
One potential way to analyze what’s an appropriate level of activism is to consider what “the other side” is doing or has done to promote religion. Religious groups have been spending centuries sending missionaries all over the world, establishing churches, shrines, meeting places. They’ve been creating supposed charitable organizations and activities, hospitals, (and in Mother Theresa’s case, places to go suffer and die), youth organizations, private schools, camps, heavily funded lobbying groups, and more. They’ve started and perpetuated military campaigns, sometimes backed by governments, sometimes by radical militants outside of the government. Entire nations currently sway with the religious breezes blown by zealots on both sides. What hasn’t been done in the name of religion? If we are to take the religious as examples of anything, it’s that they have overwhelmingly dotted the landscape of history and the world with religious activism spanning the entire scale. Therefore, citing what the religious are doing or have done is not a good way to measure the ethicalness of our own activist behavior.
Another way to think about where we should fall on the scale is from the consequentialist point of view. Let’s not think too much about what we’re doing on the small scale (whether it be handing out atheist pamphlets or assassinating religious zealot leaders), but what we’re trying to accomplish for the sake of humanity. This point of view may require the activist not only to believe that religion is wrong, but also that religion is so harmful that it must be eliminated by any means necessary. However, that is not the only side one can take as a consequentialist. It could be believed that a well-balanced world is, in the long run, more beneficial for humanity, and that the actions that must be taken should be limited to those which would ultimately treat religion and non-religion as essentially equal. There are those who already think this is the case, and there are those who think that we have a long way to go to accomplish something even close to a balance. Consequentialism, is, then, too ambiguous and subjective to use as a guideline. The same could probably be said of any utilitarian theory — they’re all quite subjective, and goal-oriented.
Let’s just say that I carried on with an analysis of every ethical theory that I could come up with. I don’t think I would find a satisfactory answer to my query. The reason? I don’t know all there is to know. I don’t know and I cannot know what’s in store for humanity. I only know what I’ve seen, what’s occurring right now, and what has apparently occurred in the past, with regard to the rife between secularism and religion, and the firm grasp that religious groups have on so many aspects of the world today. I’m not advocating violence or war on behalf of non-religion. What I’m saying is that I’m not quite sure that it’s unethical, depending on the situation, and from whose point of view it is making the decision.
Most assuredly, though, if the religious zealots of my nation stood up in arms and attempted to create a theocracy by force, I would retaliate in kind. I think that’s essentially happening in some parts of the world today. What’s happening here is that the religious have infused themselves into the government and essential positions in society in order to perpetuate that hold on power and control, and we, as rationals, as skeptics, as atheists, need to do at least the minimum of what it takes to reverse that trend and keep it reversed, regardless of any criticism from any source. I just can’t tell you exactly how that’s to be done, and how far we need to go in order to get it done.
- God’s Honest Truth, Andrew Brown, Guardian.co.uk. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/oct/18/godshonesttruth [↩]
- Children must choose their own beliefs, Richard Dawkins, Guardian.co.uk. http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2001/dec/30/schools.religion [↩]
- China, among others, has had a blemished history of military-backed opposition to religion. [↩]

State of Protest is an online journal dedicated to the dissemination of pertinent rational activist information. The journal is run by skeptics, atheists, and other alleged undesirables, and it contains book reviews, movie reviews, interviews, and atheist and activist articles on a variety of topics. We maintain the idea that information and critical thinking are key elements in making progress against the status quo of a religiously controlled and threatened society and world.
















August 15th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Good assessment. I think it’s important for atheists to cross over the line into making it known to others that they are an atheist. There’s no need to shout it from the rooftops (or maybe there is) but a shift needs to occur so that people are not afraid of disclosing this aspect of themselves. We are never going to overcome the negative stigma until people have real-life examples of atheists who are not evil monsters.
August 16th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Fantastic article Pro. I think in terms of christianity Europe is already doing quite well in acknowledging that the church shouldn’t have so much power. I can openly discuss religion with people and everyone I know is aware I am an atheist. I have no fear of repercussion. I have openly spoken about it while here in the states and received some negative feedback though.
It’s disgraceful that atheists here must feel the need to hide their beliefs and I think if that attitude ever changes we’ll be onto something good.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:28 am
You Might be a Militant Atheist if……
The slur du jour aimed at atheists appears to be that of “militant atheism.” While we in the atheist community know full well that there is no such thing as a militant atheist, the Christians who use this phrase remain willfully ignorant or are simpl…
August 21st, 2008 at 12:45 pm
One of the more depressing things I’ve seen is when an atheist is basically told by another to “sit down” “stop rocking the boat” “you’ll make them think we’re bad/militant/etc”.
August 22nd, 2008 at 8:03 am
It is annoying that we (in the USA) cannot have a discussion about religion even casually. Well, of course we can, as long as it is an acceptance of Christianity. It’s mentally exhausting to deal with people who haven’t the ability or desire to engage in a logical, reasoned discussion on the lack of proof for a god. As the cartoon shows, when one attempts to engage in the conversation it normally develops into a negative encounter.
If an adult suddenly professed a belief in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, we would make attempts to rationalize with that individual and there would be no ethical dilemmas for doing so. I see no ethical dilemmas involved in rationalizing with the god-burdened. It would take a lot to be “too much”. Physical violence is off limits, unless of course the Christians commit acts of physical violence against atheists. As you state, we should respond equally at that point.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Great article as a survey of the levels of disbelief, and activism. And your ultimate conclusion of “uh, i dunno!” sounds is at the same time disappointing and refreshingly honest (and even appropriate).
I wish I had the answer too, because I struggle with the same questions. JNTB says it well that it’s annoying (not strong enough!) and mentally exhausting to be dealing with the (childish) resistance to our world view.
But I think you (we) should all be very much clearer about the fact that we do not advocate violence. And not JUST because being fuzzy on that erodes our credibility, but because we simply believe it’s wrong to hurt someone because you disagree with them.
If I had to have THAT argument as much as I do the one about whether doubting magical claims is worth it, I think I’d be pretty annoyed and exhausted too.
August 30th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
[...] presents How Much Is Too Much? posted at State of Protest. A critical analysis of the scale of rational activism, from closet to [...]
September 8th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
I disagree with the multiple posts that claim violence is always bad (in an immoral sense). Violence is the only answer when hands are around your throat. But it should be treated as a last resort.
Fighting is necessary when one or more threaten your freedom or someone you love (be it family, friend, country, humanity). And there is nothing wrong with a “Militant Atheism” so long as they are only fighting when theists try and take away the freedom to their private lives. The crusades were different in that atheists were killed because they believed something different. A fight by Militant Atheist’s would not be for the purpose of ‘detoxicating’ but rather removing the hand from our throats.
Would the world be better without religion? Yes, but not at the cost of losing freedom. It should be as it always should have been: do what you will with yourself, but not with me. As Ayn Rand spoke so eloquently:
“Man is niether to be obeyed nor to be commanded.”
If this boundary is crossed, fighting is the only hope to regain freedom.
Nice article. It approaches the subject with grace (slightly too much, maybe, but at least honestly)
September 11th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
I love how you portray the athiest in your cartoon as an innocent sweet little girl. Oh the irony.
September 11th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Mini, It’s not my cartoon. I credited the creator. Also, where’s the irony?
Oh, one more thing, do you have any actual criticism of what’s being stated in the cartoon?
September 24th, 2008 at 9:41 am
[...] I’ve advocated boycotting stores that support evangelical right-wing fundamentalist entities,1 and I firmly believe in doing everything possible to remove the taint of religion from the decision-making process of government and its presence in our law, public schools, and courthouses. I’ve also asked the question, how far should we rational thinkers go in countering religion?2 [...]
October 1st, 2008 at 12:51 am
“the Holy Bible, was severely flawed with contradictions, rewrites, and surreptitiously inserted new passages.”
Really? Name me 1 contradiction.
As for the comic. just wow. You say we as Christians are blowing things out of proportion and you post that? Baby killing is basically what pro-choice and pro-abortion supports. Call it whatever fancy name you want it all comes down to killing infants. But i dont see anyone going around saying “ARREST SOMEONE THEY SUPPORT KILLING BABIES.”
And as for the second slide i can say one thing. It was Adam and EVE not Adam and STEVE. Yea Gay and Lesbianism is wrong, but somehow it has gotten the whole “being gay or lesbian is cool now”. How did that happen?
Third slide…If you want to flame yourselves and call yourselves agents of Satan go ahead. If you want the truth we don’t hate you or despise you. We pray for you. Yea you won’t appreciate it but it’s kind of like asking that God help you
And God in schools and government? Hasn’t he always been there? Oh wait i already made this arguement in another silly little blog.
Slide 4…You wanna go look at “obscene art” thats your choice. Yea it’s wrong but I dont see any true Christians boycotting or rebelling against them. Notice i said TRUE Christians.
Slide 4…And you have that right, however you choose to exercise it. You don’t see us out on the street killing Muslims or Jews do you? And don’t EVEN think about bringing up the Crusades because you will loose that arguement against me aswell. But really feel free to email me. nickfaith@gmail.com
Slide 5… People like this are weak and sensitive and don’t have a good understanding of God. Sadly, aparently that is the sterotypical christian nowadays. tsk tsk.
October 1st, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Nick said, “Name me 1 contradiction”
Here, Nick. Have a few dozen:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
Oh, and here, too:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
And here:
http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra
And here:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
And here:
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/contradictions.html
And, hey, why trust any of them, when you can consult an actual biblical scholar:
http://www.bartdehrman.com/
October 1st, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Nick, the cartoon is parody. The hyperbole is deliberate. It’s to make a point about double standards that you seem to display just fine.
“But i dont see anyone going around saying “ARREST SOMEONE THEY SUPPORT KILLING BABIES.”” No, but you surely see them picketing abortion clinics and saying far worse things. Someone has even taken the initiative to kill a doctor who performed abortions. Oh, we should be so lucky that arrest would be the worst they called for. No, the point isn’t whether they’re saying “arrest them” or “off with their heads” - the point is that they’re out there, like you, making incredible and unqualified accusations of “baby killing” or being immoral or waging a war on christmas, but then crying persecution if anyone suggests they keep their religion out of schools or government. Free speech is a two way street, and isn’t really complete without secularism.
And please don’t insult our intelligence with the True Christian schtick. The people who boycott or try to block things on moralistic grounds consider themselves True Christians, and think anyone who disagrees can’t really be a True Christian. How do you define a True Christian? One who’s okay with obscene art exhibits as long as they don’t have to go?
October 1st, 2008 at 11:25 pm
Procustes-
Here, just for kicks and giggles i’ll review each site. Sadly i can’t go through each and every one of them at the moment because im disprooving a paper right now and concentrating more-so on that. Sorry. Clearly the first one is pretty pointless as to when what was created. And as for Adam was supposed to die for eating the fruit, it was a spiritual death, which is basically eternal separation from God. As for the first one on the second website. Nice paraphrase of the bible. I just LOVE it when people do that. Try reading the entire chapter or even the whole book of Jeremiah and get back to me. Third one. WOW. “Exodus 32:27 “Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor.” ” So why all the ‘…’s? Are we leaving something out here?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/allthings.html
ABSOLUTELY pathetic. I’m sorry but in the first example thats the very end of a verse. Post the whole thing next time. And for the second one, AGAIN, keep reading. “When the spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth…” Wanna be patient? Wow. You seriously want me to even bother with this when all the verses have either … before them or … after them? Find me some REAL contradictions. Not Then…Jesus…Killed…Sheep…
Spider-
Wanna explain to me my own double standards? Please do. I’m actually sort of confused.
How can you view abortion as anything BUT killing infants? That’s ALL it is. Again, sure put whatever fancy name you want on it but it all comes down to the same thing. Mabye i need to explain the procedure to you? Gee, I love when people twist my words. True Christian isn’t defined as “One who’s okay with obscene art exhibits as long as they don’t have to go”. I clearly stated that its your right to go look at that “Art”. I don’t find it to be right but like I said i havnt seen any true christian boycotting. When i say this i mean, not the crazy guy outside screaming “End of the world! Accept Jesus!!!”